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Hot air balloon pilot Allie Dunnington holds the women’s world-record for the most countries flown in a hot air balloon and she’s the UK’s first female Private Pilot Licence Examiner. She’s flown in 105 countries so far, and she’s on a mission to add many more.

A German native now based in the UK, Allie is extremely passionate about getting more women flying. She's an active member of the British Women Pilots’ Association and set up the Women’s Balloon Event for female pilots.

Talking points include:

• Allie’s world record breaking flights around the world

• How Allie got into hot air ballooning

• Memorable flights and flying in different terrains

• What hot air ballooning is like and how to become a pilot

• What qualities you need to be a pilot

• The reasons there aren’t more female pilots and how to solve this

• Women in aviation

• The Women’s Balloon Events and how they started

Transcript

Karla: Hello and welcome to the women's edition, where women share their stories, experiences and challenges. I'm Karla, and each week, I share conversations with women who inform and inspire. We hear the lessons they've learned, their thoughts on social issues and what we can all learn from women's lived experiences.

So here we are with a brand new series. There are so many new and exciting developments in this series. There's a new logo illustrated by the very talented Rosie Johnson, who was a guest on series one. Thank you to Rosie for doing such a wonderful job. Secondly, there's a new introduction, and we also have a new topic for this series - adventure. I'm talking to contemporary female adventurers, and there are so many inspiring guests in this series, I really can't wait for you to hear them all. So without further ado, I would like to introduce my first guest. She's the first woman I thought of for this series of contemporary female adventurers, and I'm so happy she said yes. 

Ally Dunnington is a hot air balloon pilot who holds the women's world record for flying a hot air balloon in the most countries around the world. And she's also the UK's first female private pilot license examiner. These are huge achievements. If you don't know much about aviation or ballooning, there really aren't that many female hot air balloon pilots, let alone ones, who have flown in so many countries around the world that they've broken the world record. Ali has flown in 103 countries so far, and she's on a mission to add so many more. She was born in Germany and traveled and worked in Asia as a tour manager for 20 years. She speaks several languages and has a master's degree in Asian studies and a PhD in tourism and anthropology. She's also a trained nurse. Ali is a commercial balloon pilot and now lives in Bristol in the UK as a qualified instructor, she trains students and runs a ballooning business Gone With the Wind with her husband Phil

Ally is an active member of the British women Pilots Association. She's so enthusiastic about promoting ballooning to women that she started the women's balloon event, which has now become a key event in the annual ballooning calendar in the UK. Here is hot air balloon pilot, Ali Dunnington. 

So, Ali, what did you do before you became a hot air balloon pilot?

Allie Well, I've had quite an interesting career. So my first degree actually was in Chinese, Japanese and empirical cultural sciences. So I did an MA in there, and then actually find a job in China. In Asia, got tricked into becoming a tour guide then, which became my kind of main profession for nearly 20 years, taking tourists all over Asia in the end, including Laos and Cambodia, Indonesia, also started to fight here in the UK. Actually, I did Scotland and Cornwall hiking tours, but then I also trained as a nurse.I thought, I need a job for life, and I was always interested in medicine. If I hadn't, if I hadn't fallen in love with languages, I might have wanted to come up to in Africa and help everybody. And then yeah, it links into one of your next questions, probably, suddenly, life changed again. And yeah, my next love story as a dog was ballooning.

Karla: Wow. And how were you introduced to hot air ballooning?

 Yes, so how was I introduced into hot air ballooning? It's a funny story, as I was tour guiding in Burma in 2002 and I suddenly lost my voice. I couldn't talk anymore, so I had to let my group go off with my local guide to see all the beautiful temples of pagan and I rested by a swimming pool where at that time in the morning, there was only one other person, person dared to check me up in my bikini and out. He was the pilot of hot air balloons, and at that time in Burma, there were only two small balloons carrying four or eight passengers in total, and I had three of my guests already having booked a balloon flight, but I had no idea. I wasn't interested in aviation whatsoever. I had to travel a lot on fixed airplanes, but I've never been up in a balloon. So there was my chance at LEED to get a free invite to join my three paying guests on that afternoon balloon ride. And it was the most incredible experience in my life that I had so far, we drifted over these 2000 temples into the setting sun. On landing all the village kids ran up to us, Phil, my now husband, filled me up with champagne, and that was that. And we always joke, did I fall first in love with him or with Hot Air Ballooning.

Karla: That's a brilliant story. 

Allie: Yes, it is. We also joke that you only fell in love with me because I couldn't talk. Little did the man know I love it. I know it's hilarious.

Karla: So can you talk to us a little bit about ballooning? Because I can imagine there's a lots of listeners who actually don't know much about it, like, what happens on a balloon flight, and what's your role as pilot? 
Allie: So yes, what happens on a balloon flight? I mean, the rule of a pilot, obviously, is to conduct a flight to give passengers a good safety briefing. So I'm definitely, obviously responsible to bring everybody safely on the ground and not to take any risks, really. So you have quite an important role there, looking after your passengers, whether they're paying guests or just your friends, people, and you are responsible for their safety.

We get people into the basket, and then we give them a good safety briefing on on where to hold, on what to do, what not to do during the flight, where to touch, how to land your landing position, and then once up in the air, you're also a bit of a tour guide. When we fly here over Bristol, of course, people don't always live in this city, so they want to hear a bit what's there and what can we see. So and especially in places like Burma pagan we really had to be tour guides and explain about the temple. So it's kind of both you're piloting, but also door hiding. And I think, well, the ballooning is so special compared to other aviation forms, because we're not in a separate enclosed cockpit, we are right in the middle there with our passengers. And you get a lot of distraction from passengers asking questions, which is great, but the balloon never flies on its own. You as the pilot, need to constantly monitor the speed, direction, descending, ascend, weather changes. So it's a very intense hour whilst you doing that flight but it's absolutely wonderful. And if you land and everybody's happy it, it's an amazing feeling. 

Karla: Can you tell me what's the most memorable flight you've ever done, and where was it?

Allie: Well, again, looking through my log book, it's really, really hard to pick out the most exciting ones. But possibly, let me start, maybe, with Mongolia. That was one of my big dreams, after a summer pilot to go back that beautiful country, because I've lived there one winter in 93 I spent a year in Ulaanbaatar when the country and the city was still so poor. But I then organized the first balloon rally through Mongolia in 2010 and it was just stunning. It's a beautiful country with absolute diverse landscape. And you can just imagine drifting over the sort of mountains and the wild horses and the camels That was lovely. And also did, if you ask really, most memorable flights, I have to mention a gas balloon flight that was a total Night Flight, taking off from Stuttgart in Germany, and then going over the Black Forest and the verge mountains in France, and landing after 12 hours lunch time the next day in France. That was also absolutely incredible. 

And another country that Phil and I had worked really, really hard for years and years, and that cost us a fortune, because in the end, we bought an old vintage airplane, and our dream and target was Cuba. We had been there privately already in 2007 and we really wanted to try and bring a balloon into the country. But you can imagine, it's a very bureaucratic, very close country. You can't just drive there, you can't put a balloon on a ship. You can't go from the US. So hugely complicated, and this is why we needed the private airplane, and pilots fly the airplane. But in the end, in 2018 we finally succeeded to bring the balloon there. Had the permissions, and we've done some amazing five flights over vinyales, these limestone hills. So I could probably go on for a long time. But another country that's obviously totally on my heart is Burma, which is sadly in such despair right now. It is so, so sad, but I had the most stunning flights at the coast, near Nepali Beach, over the jungle and then landing near the beaches or over pagan the 2000 temples there. It is a beautiful, beautiful country. Incredible. 

Karla: You've flown so many countries.

Allie: And I mean, that's the trouble. And some flights, you know, when you ask most memorable, some flights can be really short, like we did a hop down a runway in Greenway The Greenland, sorry. And it was only a five minutes flight, but again, just trying to get there, trying to find the weather, try to get permissions, and then cruising down that strip towards the icebergs and the Arctic sea. It was quite adrenaline as well.

Or trying to fly in Andora, which is a tiny country, totally built up. That's hard, a green field left. That was a challenge. I only did it in a hop off, because anything bigger, you would not be able to fly. So, yeah, countries depend on their challenges, really, yeah, and what's it like flying in different conditions, like flying over mountains, or have you flown in the desert? Yes, sure, yeah, Namibia and Kenya and, yeah, various deserts. I love deserts. Desert flying is stunning because in the mornings, for example, you have the contours and the sunlight and the shade, and it's just magical, really. It's quite spectacular really.

But likewise, the Alps, for example, in the winter, I have to say the Alps are more stunning in the winter when they're all snow covered, and you go right over the tops there, and you have the whole Alpine panorama in front of you. But yes, you need to prepare for different situations. I mean, high altitude winter flying takes a complete different preparation than flying in a hot desert country. So you need to make your load calculations, choose the right equipment, the right clothing. So yes, it's different, and will be part of everybody's training. When you do your basic balloon training, you will also learn how to cope with these different situations. 

Karla: Do you feel quite prepared? 

Allie: Yeah. I mean, as I say, every flight, you have to prepare something, whether in the UK or going over to the snow mountains preparation, and we can tap that topic later on. 

Karla: It is one of the big part in ballooning that's amazing, and you hold the female world record of having flown her air balloon in 103 countries. Is it still 103

Allie: Yes, sadly, it is because, of course, through lockdown, I haven't been able to pursue tracing more countries and traveling, so I'm quite confined to Bristol, where I live. Yes, so that's true, and the idea came from Phil. So Phil holds the overall world record, but he's flown now. Let me think, I think 127 countries, and he started, obviously, many, many years ago, he was actually running as a syndicate, the British Airways balloon. And every time we started a new route, they would send the team and that balloon to those countries like Pakistan and all over the world. So he was lucky that after sort of 10, 15, years, he looked through his lockdown and thought, gosh, that's a lot of exotic countries. And so the idea came about, and there's about four of us in that race. 

There's one guy, Chris Davis, who's chasing Phil in 10 countries, I think. But after him, I think I've overtaken the second one, poor spell, word, by two countries. Now, so it's a little race between us, but it's absolutely fascinating to try and fly in as many countries as you can. Gosh, and you really chased him, haven't you, because you because you haven't been flying as long as him, have you? No, that is absolutely true. So Phil has had his license since 72 or something. I've had my PPL since 2005 so I'm catching up rapidly. Two years ago, actually, I knocked down 10 countries in one year that was that was a highlight.

And, yeah, it's not easier, because obviously the easy countries get less and less more difficult countries get more and more but there's over there's nearly 200 countries in the world. Probably 40 you would not be able to fly a balloon. Those are little islands in the Pacific, but I reckon I still got 20 quite doable countries ahead of me. So yes, I've got quite a long list what I still want to do if I can. 

Karla: And where else are you longing to fly? 

Allie: So if you could fly anywhere without the politics or the restricted airspace getting in the way. Where would that be? So last year, my big, big hope, and we had the flights booked and the balloon ready, and I had worked a year on getting permissions and even an exemption from the president, was Malta. A small island of Malta is nearly my last country in Europe, apart from the Vatican in Monaco, but that sadly, fell into COVID, and so was another expedition that we want to do around the stance. So when iStan Uzbekistan, Pakistan, etc. So yeah, certainly, I would love to revive those ideas and try and do these countries. 

Karla: Would you ever get into the Vatican? Is that possible? 

Allie: Well, sadly, I missed the chance when we had the German hope. So I'm originally from Germany, so I missed the opportunity only Giovanni. Giovanni, IMO, we believe, is the only person who's ever had permission years and years and years ago. Oh, wow, yeah. So that would be hard, yeah. And obviously, it's so small, isn't it, of course. I mean, you could only do a fly out, the same as with my knuckle. You could launch from the helipad and fly into France, you could not stand back in that country, but that counts. So on the country counting list, it's either a landing or a take off and a flight of minimum five minutes. That's kind of the internal racing rules.

Karla: And then I wanted to talk a little bit about women in aviation, because that's something you're really into. And let's talk about the women's balloon meet that you launched in 2010 I think. Could you tell us what it is and why you set that up? 

Allie: Yes, absolutely. It's definitely in my heart to talk about women in aviation, and especially in balloons, since I'm involved in there. So it all goes back, I would say, probably, to the year 2015 16, when I finally had my private license and I finally could take part in that amazing Bristol Balloon Fiesta, launching amongst 130 other balloons. And I stood in the briefing tent, and I sort of looked around and I thought, well, all the girls here felt quite lonely. I think there were maybe four other female pilots registered at time fly at that Fiesta, and the rest was just guys. And so that kept me ticking and wondering, why is that? And so it kind of clicked on that. And then we were in Burma, and again, you I hardly knew any commercial pilots. Never mind a few private ones. So I thought something needs to be done. And why don't we have a balloon event where the women have to fly. My rules were that she could, if she hasn't got a license yet, she could fly with a male pilot to train her to make it a bit easier.

But the key thing was that I really wanted these girls or women to be on the burner and get their first hands on experience. Because I still believe until you've done something really practically yourself and had the opportunity to a go up in a balloon and maybe catch that burn or get feel for these things, you will not really get the click and get so much involved. So I was then also becoming a member of the British women's Pilots Association, the B double PA, which I highly recommend. They've done fantastic events. And I combined the event as a joint experience that I wanted balloonists to experience fixed wing flying and the fixed wing flyers to learn a bit more about balloons. So that event really has been running for the last 10 years that we couldn't host it last year, but I'm hopeful maybe that by the autumn, we can have a live women's balloon meet again, and it'd be lovely to have you, Karla, to join us there. 

Karla: Oh, that'd be amazing. Absolutely. That'd be incredible. Thank you. Okay, so you're the first ever UK female examiner, and I can't believe this in 50 years of ballooning history in Britain. I just think that's amazing. Do you think that if we got more women female examiners? Do you think there might be more female pilots? Do you think it's like chicken and the egg or how do you think that would help? 

Allie: Yes, I definitely think so. I think really, and I've seen a lot of recent reports, as mentioned earlier, the DFT Department of Transport has done a big survey on the Women in Aviation. Exactly that topic. It's not only balloons, obviously. It covers fixing aviation, commercial aviation.vAnd the question really is, why are there not more female pilots, and what can we do to increase the numbers? And I think a big part really is lack of role models. If you don't see women doing this, you just think, you know you can't do it. So creating more. Models as commercial pilots, as pilots, just like that, or as instructors, or whatever. And we all learn different. And indeed, there have been so many studies, how do we learn? We just had an instructor seminar the other day, and there was a good task on how we all learn, and that might be sometimes quite different. So I think the number has now really gradually increased. And I'm so pleased to say that I think now in 2021, during the recent spinning online seminars that I hold for 20 students, I had nearly a 5050, share of men and women joining as as trainees. So that is incredible. And, yeah, so that is really, really lovely. And I think, I think women are getting a bit more into the saddle in aviation, because there has been quite a support now, also from the main aviation industry, to push and facilitate sponsorship and and just to, yeah, create awareness. Also that it is, it is an imbalance in aviation.

Karla: Oh, it totally is, yeah, because when I looked at the the only official figures I could find, there were 11 female current commercial pilots to 175 male pilots, which is such big gap. So, yeah, lack of representation. But do you think there are any other reasons? 

Allie: Yeah, I mean, I have to, I have to honestly say I felt that is also, at least during my career, I felt sometimes really quite prejudiced. I have to say it openly, when I had my commercial license, I think I just didn't get the recognition that I also had my CPL and that I could fly commercially. AndI felt people just thought, oh, yeah, you know, Allie is just flying her hop on privately. And it took me a long time, actually, to even get a job offered. And I see some of the younger guys click here and there, so that it surprised me for a while. And even, like you say, with the examiner role, it took a long, long time. And there again, is the tenacity sometimes.

I think a lot of people might give up because there's too many hurdles in the way. And you think, what am I doing this for? But I think I've been also very, very lucky that my husband has absolutely supported me in my career steps, and, you know, given me sometimes that extra push to say, you know, just just carry on, or don't worry about that. If you don't have that support, also from your partner, I think you might sometimes also find it even more hard.

Hopefully, I think, yeah, those hurdles, hopefully in the future get less and less, and I think we do see a really great increase. There's a lot of young female pilots now training, and that's fantastic to see. 

Karla: So if you wanted to become a pilot, say there's some women listening. Now, where would you begin? What's the process for becoming a hot air balloon pilot?

Allie: Right? So yes, it's maybe sometimes not as easy for people if they're not near sort of a more balloony center like Bristol, clearly, is if you're more out in remote parts of Wales, for example, it can be difficult, but the best thing is to still look out who is the local balloon pilot, or is there a local rights operation, commercial operator, and then get in touch with these guys like you've done. Karla, brewing can be a brilliant way to just see whether you are like this and whether you're interested and whether that's something for you. And through crewing, you learn so much already about how ballooning works. But other than that, obviously we have the BBC, is the British balloon and airship club that is our general umbrella organization, and all our training now runs through the BBC, so you would become a member there, and then you get all the information how to train, and you get online material for that. And yeah, so there's definitely ways, but we don't have a fixed flying school. There's no balloons. Don't normally fly from airfields, so it's a bit not so focused and visible for some people as learning fixed wing. Okay, but quite a welcoming community. If you did decide to, yes, absolutely and again, I mean, if you offer to start a screw, people will love you. We're always desperate to find crew who help and who can drive for young people. Now is that they must have this trailer license, and that's quite costly. And it takes a course, and that's a big hurdle, because, of course, we need to show that trailer in most situations. And what happens often is that a pilot would give you maybe even a free lesson if you can crew for a couple of flights. So people exchange, you know, crewing for getting a bit of hands on training.

Karla: And what qualities do you think you need to become a pilot?

Allie: That's a brilliant question, absolutely. So yeah, I've thought of that quite a lot, indeed. And because I'm also an instructor, and through what I've did recently in lockdown, I've been teaching online sessions for the written exams. I got to know only through zoom, mostly now, but over 50, 60 students who are all keen here to learn a train. And sometimes, when you do meet people, you kind of immediately think, yes. Person will be wow, you know, not at all a minute you see people, acting, speaking, doing with others, you think, Yeah, might take a little bit longer, just for the fact that basically, basically, I think you've got to have really good organisation skills, because just to prepare a flight, to get it All together, even for experienced pilots, after a while or on a daily basis, there is a lot to organize. Then also you need to be a tier lead team leader as a pilot, because you are still responsible for everything. So you might have well trained crew, but if they do something wrong in preparation or rigging, it still will be newer responsibilities, so you need to have an eye on everything, but you also need to give clear commands. You need to be able to give a briefing. So I think a little bit outgoing personality will certainly be helpful.

You also need to be good at decision making. You will need to make a lot of tough decisions in your piloting life, when to land, whether to go on, etc, and it's no good just flying forever and running out of gas. We discussed this during our last session. In fact, you will at some point have to make decisions and then just stand by it and work it out. And of course, learning is very multitasking, so you need to do so many things at the same time, which is why I always say women will be much better actually at the learning than men, because we're very multitasking.

But likewise, my last points would be, I think you also need to have tiny bit of patience. Never just put it through and think you want to go flying, but actually, look, the weather is rubbish. You shouldn't better, but also a little bit of tenacity, you know, because it will take you a lot of frustration to go through your training and to become a pilot. So, you know, keep going, don't lose sight of your goal. I think is also really important, yeah, so that's a couple of the points I think will be helpful if you've got those. Yeah, because I've been asked a lot about becoming a pilot at Blue meets, and I've always, always said no, because I have no navigation skills whatsoever.

Karla: I don't know left from right. And what would you say? What would you say to someone like me? Or if there's women out there who are listening, who are like, Oh no, I just don't think I'd be very good at it. What would you say to them? 

Allie: Well, I think that's actually a brilliant point, Karla, that you mentioned that, and that's one of the points that I also forgot to mention about why sometimes women don't move up the career ladder. Because I think in general, women are much more self critical. We think, Oh no, I'm not good enough at that and oh no, maybe I can't do that really. So Well, we have a much higher expectation level of ourselves and some of the guys. So I've seen so many guys also struggling with metrology and some of these skills, like navigation. They're not better than us, but the way we see ourselves the problem, and that needs to be changed, and I think we can all learn that stuff. I'm terrible as mathematics. So again, navigation exam was one of the most difficult ones for me, for my brain, because I'm not good at calculating conversion rates and this and this, and I'm good at general navigation, but your navigation exam, when when it comes to the written exams, has a lot of mathematics in it, and that was my hurdle. But I think the point there is, we have a lot of really, really good instructors out there, so you just need to find the right teacher. And that brings me back again to, you know, if you don't click with one pilot or one instructor, try another one. Because we all we have all different personalities we teach different, and you just need to find the right person to teach you with patience, the skills where you think you're not so confident. But I think really everybody can learn everything. You just need to try so you will do it all right. 

Karla: Well, you've certainly made me rethink.

Allie: Absolutely, you definitely should go for it, because I think every skill can be learned if you're if you want to do something, you can overcome. These are small hurdles. Navigation is only a fifth of the rest of the sort of skills or exam papers that you need to to know. And once you've got your license, you know, we have so many electronic help tools that help lessen up with our navigation that actually, it's, it's and it can become fun, you know? So I think, yeah, go for it. Never, never think you can't do something. It's, it's worth giving it a try and just find the right teeth. So that's really important. 

Karla:  That's such good advice. And so what does the future hold now that restrictions are starting to lift in the UK, Which country are you off to next?

Allie: Well, which country I'm off to next? Well, part of me, in my heart, of course, I would love to visit my parents again, who are in Germany, and I haven't seen them for a year now. So whilst Germany certainly wouldn't be a new ballooning country, I think I would love to see my family again on a new country list. Of course, Malta. I definitely would love to resurrect the Malta trip. And then, yeah, possibly the stance at some stage for Africa. We also had plans to do Botswana and Mozambique again. Mozambique looks terrible at the moment. It's very sad, so, but we have to see with the restrictions and what's possible. So we're not making too closely knit plans. 

But your question, what does the future hold? I think ballooning will come back in full swing here. Frankly, I think people have been holding back and not doing things for so long. We've seen, really, the bookings for most of the commercial operators going quite well. Some people are still obviously a bit worried, but I think by the summer, hopefully, if things move the right way, I think most companies and pilots commercially will be very busy with passenger rides, but likewise, even the students, and that was why I was holding these online tutoring lessons is we've hopefully brought people back on being keen and trying to train and get their licenses so good ballooning weather, and we get all these people back up in the air. Certainly, people are keen, and I hope for a good future for ballooning. 

Karla: Oh, thank you so much, Ali. That was such a good chat. 

Allie: Absolutely. Karla, to you too. Fantastic questions.

Karla: What an extraordinary woman. Thanks so much to Ali for coming on the podcast. I can't wait to see how many more countries she adds to her world record list. I hope hearing Ali talk has given you some food for thought. About Women in Aviation. It's women like Ali who are at the forefront of pushing the envelope when it comes to flying women. And I'm really excited to see what the future holds for Women in Aviation. Maybe you've always wanted to give it a go, or maybe next year, if you can go to your local balloon meet, because, as Ali says, they're always looking for crew. I hope you'll join me for the next few weeks, as we hear from many more contemporary female adventurers, I'll see you next week. Bye. You.