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Kalkidan Legesse is a social entrepreneur who founded the ethical fashion retailer Sancho’s and the clothing resale platform OWNI (formally known as Shwap).

Talking points include:

• Sancho’s game changing ethos and aims

• Sancho’s as a platform for anti-racism discussions, of learning and growing

• Bringing equality to the fashion industry

• Supporting black women owned businesses

• Black Pound Day

• Transparent pricing

• Kalkidan’s new clothing resale platform OWNI

• Evolving business due to COVID-19

• Winning Best High Street Shop of 2020 by Holly and Co

• Sancho’s new loungewear and photoshoot with Maia Thomas

• The inspiring women in Kalkidan’s life

You can find sustainable fashion at Sancho’s and on OWNI. Kalkidan can be found on Instagram, as can Sancho’s.

Transcript

Karla: Hello and welcome to the women's edition, the podcast which celebrates women's stories. I'm Karla, and I'm joined by women who share stories about their lives, experiences and challenges. So wherever you are, thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoy their stories as much as I do you. Music. Hello and welcome to the last episode of Series one. I can't believe it. Thanks to everyone for joining me throughout this first series. This week, I welcome Kalkidan Legesse. She's a social entrepreneur and founder and director of Sancho, which is a sustainable fashion and lifestyle shop in Exeter, which stocks an impressive array of ethical labels, as well as running Sanchos. 

Kalkidan is also about to launch Shwap, a digital resale platform for sustainable fashion brands which looks really exciting, and we talk about that in the episode sans has a major following online, and recently won independent High Street shop of 2020, by Holly and co has also been named one of Draper's 30 under 30 of 2021, which is an initiative celebrating the rising stars of fashion retail. There are a number of reasons I asked Kalkidan to come on the podcast, firstly because of her mission to found environmentally ethical and socially inclusive businesses, but also because of her ability to address hard hitting topics and how, through Sancho, she's created a platform and a space for learning and growing, which I find so interesting, and we talk a lot about that. So I'm really excited to welcome her onto the podcast. 

Karla: The story of Sancho is, how did that all begin?

Kalkidan: Oh, how to say, you know, how? Like, a few years ago, less so now, though, you know lots of people like, oh, yeah, I really want to do better about my shopping. I want to make a difference. Or, yeah, I want to buy something that's ethically made. But I don't know how. You know, I kept getting tired of kind of hearing that and that feeling of like, I want to do something that's better for the world, but I don't know how to do it. And so we thought it would be really valuable to put together a retail space that, you know, really housed brands making a difference, and put them all together so that our customers didn't have to do the work of like gaging, whether or not things were made in a socially in an environmentally sound way, yeah, just because you know, at some point, rather than worrying about what's going wrong or how to make an impact, you just have to start somewhere, don't you? So that's how Sanchos began, that and a few other things happening in our kind of personal lives. 

And you know, I was introduced to fashion as a platform for change, working in Ethiopia, where I learned all about weaving and the craft of fashion. So there was some personal kind of drive to tell that story as well. It's just, yeah, fashion is great because it basically, you know, it's creativity, it's art, it's manufacturing. It's a really effective way to employ a lot of people. Yeah, so a lot of reasons. 

Karla: Well, I think in a lot of people's views, it is very game changing. Can you talk us through the shop’s ethos and aims and how you came up with them?

Kalkidan: I think I've always been motivated to just do the right thing. And I guess that sounds a bit like airy fairy, maybe quite obnoxious too. But I think what I mean is, if I do something, I need to know that it's not hurting people and not hurting the environment and not hurting kind of vulnerable creatures, ideally like, and so that was probably, I don't know how you would summarize that into a phrase. I'm sure somebody could do that better than me, but that want to kind of just sleep easy at night, I guess, built our criteria for Sancho, which is essentially, you know, the things we sell. Well, need to be fairly traded. So that means workers have a living wage. They are able to unionize, you know, they're not working in unsafe conditions, things like that. It needs to be sustainably produced. So it has to be organic recycled. It needs to be made to last. So it needs to not be kind of fair.

Designs are produced kind of for very short periods of time with no thought to their longevity. And we're looking for transparency of the supply chain as well, so our customers can find out more about where things are from and what they do. So yeah. So this criteria is kind of how we look at the business, and we look at it in terms of what we sell, but also how we sell it. So, you know, our packaging process, our marketing comms, how our staff are treated, how we treat each other, yeah, but it's just, like, yeah, you know, I think it's crazy how, like, not all businesses do that, if I'm honest with you, and I guess more so now it's becoming more businesses are trying to position themselves in that way. But what's interesting is watching how like, for big organizations, it could be such a challenge because they they haven't practiced so they haven't built the muscle of, you know, taking into account multiple stakeholders when designing their business model, so much so that their business model is inherently exploitative, which is, yeah, it's a really surreal thing to see. And people ask me about it regularly. And I think it's just for me, it's always been the most kind of natural course to take, I guess,

Karla: Yeah, I think so personally, but I think there's a lot of people out there that wouldn't, which is interesting, doesn't it? 

Kalkidan: Yes, so much like, so much that's really like damaging behaviour so normalised in our cultures? I think that the way we've, we've understood what the economy is and what businesses are feels like, like inevitable truth. So we're taught things about businesses that are taught as though they're kind of written on stone their facts. You know, businesses should profit maximize. They should lower their costs. They should do whatever it takes. They should sell as many products as they possibly can. But all of those teachings were designed by, you know, just a small amount of people, but then re taught to all of us until it became our heuristic. And I think it's only really in the past 10 years that an alternative story is being told to the kind of to a mass audience, stories around circularity, around degrowth, around sustainability, and I think they're really exciting. And, yeah, has power to kind of transform our world.

Karla: That's a really thoughtful answer. And you're bringing equality to the fashion table in many ways. You're amplifying black and brown female voices. You're, you know, fair wages for garment workers who are predominantly women, and making fashion fair for females in so many ways. And I wondered, was that was fairness for women in particular, an important factor for you, or is that, is it just because women tend to do a lot of that work in the fashion industry that that's how that came about?

Kalkidan: I think both. I'm a Ethiopian woman, you know, I'm an asylum seeker, or, you know, used to be an asylum seeker, you know, I I'm really proud of where I come from, and I know it's richness, but in typical ways, like my life, could have gone a different direction. So I think it feels, it all feels like really personal. And I wish that, I wish that that wasn't the driving factor, because it would be good to say that, you know, I could it matter. It should matter to everybody, right? It shouldn't matter to me specifically, but, yeah, like, particularly the experiences of black and brown women feels really personal, because that's the group to which I belong. And honestly, like, I think if there were more black and brown women in leadership positions within fashion like this wouldn't happen. Because the reason that the industry, well, one of the reasons why the industry can stomach the exploitation of so many people is because we don't, in the West and in kind of countries that have been in economies that have been born out of, you know, the remnants of colonialism, we don't value the lives. Of black and brown women in the same way that we do other lives. And so when we hear of the exploitation, it doesn't feel unusual, like we're not surprised by it. And so we can let it perpetuate, and that's so scary. And yeah, I guess I can't feel that way, because, you know, it's me, yeah. 

But also, in addition to that, like the fashion industry is so reliant on women, you know, over 80% of people who work in fashion are women. You know, that's crazy. You know, 74 million people, it's one of the largest employers in the world. And yet, you know, how best does it serve them? The people who own fashion as a whole tend to be, you know, really wealthy men, more often than not, white men. And you know, the people making the most money from it are belong to that group as well, but they are completely reliant on the labor of black and brown women. And, yeah, I think that that. I think there's a lot of that that is in that, you know, how have we as a society failed to understand that until, really, very recently, and failed to understand that, like, if we want equality, you know, these the value needs to be more fairly distributed, like that. That's it's a really simple thing, I think. But for some reason, I think the way fashion has been marketed, and why, the way the story of fashion has been sold for so long kind of has really told, like, discluded them from the story, and just kind of ignored how it came to be and where it comes from. I mean, who makes it and, you know, their lived experience. I think it's only recently that we've been kind of trying to center them more

Karla: Yeah, exactly, it's sad, but it's not surprising, and I think that makes it even worse. Yeah, and so what ways do you think people could support black women owned businesses? What can we do to go forward from this?

Kalkidan: So I mean to support black women owned businesses like you should shop with them. Just be a customer. One thing that like, one thing that's changed for me is, and there's this thing called Black pound day, and it was started by Swiss of solid crew, and he's just a real stand up guy. But it just encourages people to shop at black owned businesses one day each month, the first Saturday of each month. And so, you know, I've always kind of wanted to shop in a mindful way, but until black family, I wasn't really asking myself, like, am I What? What? What goes into my thinking process, and I buy things. And one thing that it highlighted for me is that, you know, obviously, I'm consuming a lot to live. You know, I consume food and housing and utilities and services and fashion, lots of different things. But am I asking myself, like, how am I? What is my selection criteria of choosing the kind of supplier I use, and what proportion am I? Am I putting into, you know, minority, you know, BIPOC owned, black owned companies. 

So now what I try to do is try to distribute at least 30% of my expenditure that way. And yeah. So I think everyone should be thinking to themselves, not just okay, let me buy from a black owned business, because that's the ethical thing to do, but they should be asking themselves, of everything that I'm spending, how much is going towards BIPOC owned people or companies. Because what I think most of us find is that it's the same people who are extracting our wealth, or take, you know, receiving our wealth over and over again. And those people, you know, of course, they tend to be white and they tend to be male, but more than that, they are, you know, already really wealthy, and they've already made, like so many decisions that indicates to us they're not going to reinvest their wealth into our society. And that's the problem. And I think that's a problem for everybody, whatever skin color you are, like, that's everyone's problem. 

So I would suggest shopping more with black owned businesses, but also just asking yourself, like, even if you've bought one thing from a black owned business, business, ask yourself of the total money that I'm distributing in this world. Like, how am I deciding who it goes to and why? And what options do I have? And if I, if I change some of my decisions, what impact might that have on the world? That's the question.

Karla: I'd also like to talk about Sanchos, not only as an ethical and sustainable fashion shop, but also as a space for anti racism, discussions of learning and of growing, because I've really noticed lately, like it's really blossomed. Was that a conscious decision to create a platform from Sanchos, or is that your voice sort of growing organically, or maybe a bit of both? 

Kalkidan: Thank you for asking that question and in that way too. I think it wasn't like I think that I didn't feel confident enough to speak about race with my full voice for a long time. And so although, like Sanchos was a platform, I think I was, I didn't really think that my thoughts, views and experience on race belong there. I think part of that is, like the conditioning we all have to kind of accept things as they are, even if they are damaging. And so, yeah, like, I mean, like a lot of people 2020 and particularly summer of 2020 was, like, super, super difficult for me, and a lot of things are difficult for me, and I think what's happening is sometimes I speak more about it, and, yeah, I think it's important too, because what I've learned is that, like, I'm not the only person struggling with a lot of lot of these kind of race or discrimination or micro progression based experiences. I think it's happening to way too many people. And one of the values of speaking about it is that people see it and they think, actually, yeah, like, you know, my experiences are true and they're sometimes unjust. And, you know, here's how I might understand them or move from them in the future. So I think that's what's happened with it. And, you know, I am. I just hope that, like we're able to provide an honest and effective place of learning, like sometimes, I think we fall a bit short, because so many of these topics are just so complex and so personal and so traumatic. And I think what's really needed is that ground up systematic change. So sometimes, like an Instagram post doesn't feel sufficient. So, yeah, I hope, I hope we're contributing overall to a good outcome.

Karla: And can I just talk about a recent post you wrote in light of the week following Sarah Everard's death, and your post said, this is all too heavy, that this week has treated womanhood like this country has treated blackness for centuries. I shared it, and I got a lot of DMS disagreeing with it, and I just wondered how you felt about the backlash I saw on that post. 

Kalkidan: It's tough, like that post in particular, like it's tough because misogyny affects all women, and it's completely unjust, and it's often very violent and and too often it's deadly. And, yeah, and I think that the thing is, like, I think when you experience trauma and you experience pain, like when others experience, I think you do as well. Like, it's, it's really hard to separate, like, one person's pain from your own, but I think that in our society, there are people who have to carry more than others, frankly, um, and so, like, I'm a black woman experiencing misogyny and racism and trying to speak on it, and being told by white women that I'm not properly speaking on misogyny, and that's a challenging place to be because, obviously, because it's such a sensitive time at the time as well. Yeah, it was really annoying. I. Like, one of the ladies just to go in was like, basically inviting me to present a kind of, you know, a peer reviewed, detailed response to her comments. 

I'm a working person, like, I don't have the time to present you with a full, like, case studied, researched argument. And I think that should be expected, given that I've communicated this on an Instagram page, you know, and but the expectation is so high and overwhelmingly high, yeah, so, yeah. I think, I mean, that speaks to kind of, I think one of the challenges of feminism is that, I think it's still not fully a space that is open to women who are not white, like, I think, like mainstream feminism is still a little bit exclusionary, yeah, very white. It's a shame, because, yeah, I don't like it. I don't think that I am safe from any form of misogyny. 

So it would be nice to feel included in the goals of feminism like that would be a nice feeling, I think, for a lot of people. And it would be nice for the call to kind of make feminism intersectional, not feel like a an attack on, on, you know, some of the core principles of feminism, which has made, you know, quality for women like that would be, it just seems like it's something that should be possible, but for some reason it's not. And I, you know, when, when I received this one, sorry, we just go, you're the first person who's asked me about this. And actually, it's like, really, like, wound me up. So that's why I've got so much to say, but um, like, I was quite overwhelmed by some of the posts and like, because I didn't know what to say. Like, I didn't know how to explain that. Like, I wasn't saying misogyny wasn't like, didn't exist. I don't know how to communicate to people that, you know, you know we're a brand that makes sure women are paid a living wage. You know that my career has been dedicated to it, like, I'm a woman like everything, like, obviously, I could do more for activism, for women, for sure, but I accept that misogyny is real quick. I don't know how to have that conversation, because, in starting, it kind of invites a critique of who I am as a person, and I just felt too vulnerable to having that conversation. Because, you know, like social media is such a toxic environment, and you're never you're not going to be like enough for everyone ever, or like you're not going to have the right ethics for everyone ever. So I don't know how to have that conversation.

I felt like, if I wasn't prepared to have that conversation, and I couldn't defend my assertion that actually, you know, the kind of most recent call for more safety and security for women, for black women, is something that seems impossible for us, like that. It would never happen because, you know, we're dying of being murdered, and of course, like with police brutality, like one of the central tenets of the Black Lives Matter movement and just racial justice movement is highlighting how police are used to enact the wills of the state through violence. That's not to say that the police are completely violent, but they there's enough evidence to illustrate that they are being used as a tool of violence, and to have that message not included in people's allyship for, you know, a year, and then for it suddenly become very clear and understandable and central to the conversation. It's like living in a twilight zone. It's so confusing. 

Honestly, it's confusing because, of course, like, of course it's true, like, and yeah, I think one thing that I read recently or heard somewhere is that, like, if a black person, like a minority person is expressing their experience, like, at that point, it's gotten too much, because if we express our experience all the time, like that would that would be literally the only thing we talk about. So by that time, there. Overloaded, and I think that's how I felt at that time. And then it was just like, Oh, damn. Like, you know, that's not enough for people. And, but, yeah. But on the other hand, like that is social media, and that's fine, you know what? I mean, it's not like, yeah, it's not, it's not the whole world, is it? And, and, yeah. The other thing is, like, I think I did the math, because I do the maths. And it was like, less than, like, 0.3% of people had something kind of to complain about. So it was just like, Well, yeah, I can't spend my entire life like worrying about 0.3% people's opinion. It makes no sense. Yeah, so yeah, which Yeah. I think people should do that more. Yeah, exactly.

Karla: I think also, it was quite nuanced what you were trying to say. And I think people, I don't know, people, have kind of lost nuance on social media. Sure it's, it's one way or the other. There's nothing in between. 

Kalkidan: That's so true and yeah, it's, I think it's one of the most toxic things about social media as well. Yeah, it's funny because, like, one of the criticisms was that I had lost nuance. I don't know where to start with that, it's funny, isn't it? Because, like, you can really ruin someone's day with like, a comment or a post, and it's amazing that people do, do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think it's I think social media isn't easy for everyone, and experiencing kind of any form of trauma, including misogyny, isn't easy for everyone. I think it's okay that we are learning how to kind of stand with each other in effective ways. I think that's okay. And, yeah, I think there's much more harmful behavior. Like, I know, I spent most of this time talking about that, but I like, it's really not, you know, I think our attention should be put in other directions.

Karla: But it has stopped me. I haven't quite yet gone there, because there's things I want to talk about, but seeing, seeing reactions on social media, I don't have the brain space at the moment to deflect all of that, which is possibly cowardice, but I don't know. 

Kalkidan: You've got to, like, find a balance. And I think some things are always worth talking about, despite, like, the things you get back and that stuff. But like, I block people, I cancel comments. Like, I yeah, I don't. I think one of the weird things is how we think that, like, everything's up for debate. Like, you can just sit down and have a debate about everything and like, everyone's views are valid. And I don't agree with that, like that, that page isn't about holding debate, it's about sharing a perspective. And so, yeah, I think that's the one way you can deal with it, as well as kind of protect your space and protect your boundaries.

Karla: That's good. That's good advice. Thank you. You recently also started your own podcast. Did you launch the podcast on the back of all of the discussions you were having with Sancho?

Kalkidan: The main thing I wanted to get over in the podcast is kind of like me and my friends will have, like, long conversations, kind of breaking down subjects until we understand them, because if we don't, that's like our therapy, because if you don't understand them, then they're so overwhelming. And yeah, that's what I'm trying to do with the podcast. But I think, yeah, people should go and like it, subscribe to it. And, yeah, but it's not like a regular thing. It's just kind of a, you know when time gives it, but yeah, for me, it was just about chatting about stuff that, for some reason people still don't chat about, which is crazy, but yeah, thanks for listening to it.

Karla: And moving on to this last year, which has been like no other in so many ways for all of us, but not only the pandemic, but there's also been quite other heavy events too. But how has lockdown and the general feeling of the last year affected Sancho and yourself? Have you had to, like, evolve the business in any way?

Kalkidan: Yeah, for sure, we've had to really like, embrace online business, which is about more than just having a website, and it's about how our team is structured, like what we're good at, like what our skill sets are like, what our networks are like. Yeah, we've had to kind of reposition the business. And that was hard, and it still is hard. Like you still, I still feel like I've got more to do than time to do it, but it's also been quite rewarding, and I've learned some things about my life. I've learned that, like, I can have a healthier work life balance if I choose, which is an amazing lesson, yes. So that's been like that, in terms of, like, the effects of lockdown, like, I'm super like, I'm completely burnt out with lockdown. Like, I'm over it. Like, I particularly like this last one, like January through to March. Now it's been super challenging. You know, the isolation is challenging, like being separated from families, challenging. And I think, as you know, we try to support our team members, but I think everyone's experiencing it in some format. Obviously, everyone around the world is experiencing it in some format. And yeah, one thing that, like, we're super lucky in is, like, everyone's healthy, which is an amazing blessing. And so, yeah,

Karla: And so talking of 2020 Sancho won high street shop of 2020, congratulations. 

Kalkidan: Like I said, like our team worked really hard last year, like we didn't have an easy year. So it was just like, really, just reduction. Is that the word? It just felt like, oh yeah, great. Like we did it. It felt really good. Yeah, I'm really proud of us. And just, yeah, really happy about it. And now we say, you know, we're the best fashion shop, which is nice. It's a nice thing to say, Yeah, I'm really happy to have one. I'm really grateful to everyone I know. A lot of people did vote for us. So yeah, really grateful to everyone who took the time.

Karla: And could we just talk about transparent pricing? And I've gone off on one here, but yeah, you introduced it last year, and I've never seen it anywhere before. Could you just talk us through it and how you came up with the idea?

Kalkidan: For sure. I mean, I don't think we're the first people who've done it, but yeah, I think we have communicated it a slightly different way, and I wish more people would do it. I guess I've done thing to start with. But basically we have, with many of our products, a tiered pricing structure, where we have three prices and the cost price. The first price is basically our cost of selling the item. The second price covers things like marketing, and then the final price covers our cost and gives us the profit margin that we are looking for, and we let the customer choose what they want to pay. And the reason we do so is because we acknowledge that not everyone has the same disposable income, and that shouldn't mean that everyone has the same access.  That shouldn't mean that people don't have access to goods or services within reason, right? I think that what happens too often in not just ethical fashion, but in sustainable industries, is most people are priced out quite quickly. 

I'm not talking about people who expect to pay 10 pounds for a full pair of jeans and buy 10 of them. You know, a year like that, obviously, is its own issue of over consumption. But you know, people who just don't have the money and otherwise wouldn't have the option. What sustainable pricing does, or transparent pricing does, is it just kind of says that if you have less money, well, here you go. And if you have more money, then you know. Think about what that means and about your choice, and how, if you are prepared to spend that money, what that means for others. And I think it's just an important kind of proponent of the type of economy and society we all want, which is one that's where resources are more equally distributed. I think we all know that, like, you know, we're all in the same storm, but we're not all in the same boat. And what, what are we going to do about it? Like, are we going to expect everyone to bear equal burden for everything that's better for the collective or can some people, you know, take on shoulder a bit more? So it's just an experiment, really, to see how customers responded, and it's just been received so well. 

I think it definitely increased our customer base, because now we are accessible to people we weren't before, and it's also given an opportunity for people to kind of reflect about their own privilege and their own wealth and what that means and about their options. And I think that's really powerful, yeah, and I think our customers also in communicating what our cost prices actually are, I think our customers understand the value of what we offer and understand that you might be seeing 100 pound jumper here, but most of that is being used to pay for organic and sustainable materials and fair trade production, which is transformative in the supply chain. So perhaps that's the right thing to do, like, that's the right product to choose, even if it's not the lowest price one on the market. So yeah, I think it does a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah, and I'm glad it's been received well, yeah,

Karla I'm intrigued. I'm guessing people do still pay full price.

Kalkidan: For sure they do, yeah, yeah. I think, I think that's this is, do you remember earlier when I was just like, I think we were taught about, like, the economy like this, and people like this and businesses like that, and just accept those to be true. Like, I think this is on the things like, we've been taught that people will exploit you, like, that's what they will do inevitably, and that's their natural there's this thing around, like, self interested actions. 

And, you know, the problem of, we treat everything like it's like a zero sum game. If I don't take from someone else, they'll take from me. And yeah, and I don't think that's true. And like, luckily, there's more research going out that's showing that there is a lot of natural kind of community orientated behavior in humans. And I wish that we could build our economy and our society based on those kinds of core principles, as opposed to the principles that, yeah, people will just take advantage of everything if they can. And yes, people pay full price on transparent price and stuff all the time, and, you know, and so they should, because when they do, we're able to kind of reinvest into our business model, and hopefully, you know, make a positive impact. And I think those people know that, and they're behind it, you know, I'm super grateful to them, but also conscious that, like, you know, it's that's their role in this. Like, that's their role, or somebody else's role might be to to just get started somewhere, you know,

Karla: I would feel way guilty of doing that, like, not paying full price, if you knew you had the money in the bank. 

Kalkidan: I hope it's not the feeling of guilt, but more the feeling of doing something good, yeah, but yeah, we should ask, right? Are we just making you feel really guilty as you're doing your shopping? Like we should ask?

Karla: No, I think it's both. I think it's seeing where the money's going really helps, and then also just know, and also, I always think, like, if I paid full price, that means someone else doesn't necessarily have to, you know, you're kind of paying it forward in a way. Not blowing my own trumpet there.

A lot of this stuff does sound like just playing around trumpet, because I always, like, listen back to podcasts and just think, but that's actually one of the reasons I did it, because women don't talk about themselves enough. Yeah, I don't think we do. I don't think it's in our society for women to say, look, I've done this. Look, how amazing this is, because men do it all the time, and it's not even like, amazing sometimes, just basic, yeah, it's like, oh, look, you're living amazing. Yeah, I do try not to be a man bashing podcast. This is a podcast celebrating women, but sometimes they just, like, set themselves up. 

Women supporting women is like the hashtag of this podcast. But I also feel like Sancho holds this space too. Could you talk through sort of the recent Fauci photo shoot and campaign with Maya Thomas and how that came about?

Kalkidan: So we have released a lounge dress set that we're really excited about. And Maya is actually a friend of mine. We met last year, and we've been doing a project with our county council together, and she's beautiful, and she does amazing work. So she does a lot of training with schools around kind of introducing them to Black Lives Matter as a movement and some of the corpus clause that are behind it. And she also runs projects where she feeds the community with a group of volunteers. So if anybody's looking for some food, she will help them. And I'm just basically, I've just seen her over, like, the past six months that I've known her like, always go a step further and always just try and be so giving with her time and her resources. And I think a lot of us like, I think I don't know, I think that's such a good example to everybody, that all of the things that you thought weren't possible are actually possible, because you can do it. And, you know, I just, yeah, I think I'm just proud of her. I think he's really cool. And I was. Delighted to work with her, just, you know, as a model, but I'm also, yeah, really delighted that hopefully we're able to introduce a few more people to her, because she's doing really great work. And, you know, I just want her to thrive. 

Karla: Yeah, I went and followed her after I saw it, because I was like, Who is this? Yeah, yeah, your photoshoots look really fun. 

Kalkidan: Thank you. Yeah, they are, they are. They can be a bit intense though, when we're actually shooting, because it's like, go, go, go, get that cute shot. Like, really relaxed in the images. But we're just like, Okay, now, now this one, now change into the next set of really cozy, comfortable, um, yeah. But no, they're really fun. And yeah, like, so Roberta Jackson keen and so she is our buying and styling manager, and she doesn't belong to she, yeah, so she directs the shoots and plans them and sets them up and does such a fantastic job of them that I get to show up and, you know, try my hardest, like not to blink, or, like, scratch my nose or something, and, yeah, our team actually is, like, at the moment, it's largely women, and that's not by design. That's just kind of, I think it's just because of the industries we're in. 

Actually, one thing that I'm really conscious of is I definitely want to have a place where men can work and want to work because diversity is really important, but yeah, like, it's such a great environment. And they're all, like, all of our team, like Olivia Riley, you for Little John, they're just amazing people. And yeah, they really make Sancho. Yeah, I'm really proud of them and grateful to them. And yeah, women support women every day, I think. And that's the cool thing.

Karla: And what's on the horizon for you? I know you're imminently launching, let me say this, right? Shwap?

Kalkidan: So, Shwap up is our startup, and we are so excited about it, like we think that it can transform the fashion industry. And that's our goal with it. And it's, yeah, it's so thrilling to like, you know, really go for it. So what Schwab does is it simplifies the process of resale to a click of a button. We've created technology that can integrate with hundreds of 1000s of brands so that people can plug in, access their catalogs, the things they purchase from the brands they love, and then buy and sell with ease. And you know, the reason that I was driven to do Schwab is because there's more clothing in the world at the moment than what it would take to dress the entire human population for the next 20 years. 

There is a huge excess of clothing, and yet more and more being produced every year. And for that to change, brands need to become circular, so they need to manage and access the life cycle of the clothing they produce. It's like, you know, when you're walking in, like a really beautiful area and you see, you know someone's littered so there's like, maybe bottles of water or crisp packets or whatever, and you're just like, Who puts them there? Like, who threw them there? Why don't they just take them home with them? But I think the other question is, how has the company managed to sell rubbish, and how is it not their responsibility to figure out what to do with it, or to recapture, repurpose it, recycle and reuse it, because behind every person throwing something away is an organization that's made something that's disposable. 

And I think that we are a place now technologically and psychologically in society where that can now change and when companies produce things that they can tap into the long kind of life cycle of that item and try to get more value from it. So Schwab is an infrastructure by which companies can do that, and people get the benefit of ease of you know, buying, selling, donating, recycling, their fashion, in their house. Yeah? So, yeah, I can't tell I'm so excited. It's been like, I've been working on it for like, two years or longer even, and we had to hit quite a lot of technological milestones and developing the infrastructure. But we have and yeah, so hoping to go live with our first version at the end of April. And yeah, I just hope it's something we can continue to develop, and I hope it will make everyone's life a bit easier.

Karla: Amazing. I look forward to that brilliant and my last question, which I love to ask, because I always get really, really good answers, is this podcast all about women's stories. So is there a woman or women in your life who have inspired you or supported you along the way? 

Kalkidan: Yes, absolutely. So who to tell you about? Yeah, like shout out to my mum, she's, like, super powerful. She's a real inspiration in lots of ways. And she's, she also keeps it real, like my family keep it real so they're not like, you know, they inspire by kind of doing things and working hard and being kind. And, yeah, I love her very much. I've got a really lovely group of, like, girlfriends in the city that I'm really grateful to. 

So Crystal Carter, she's American. She is this amazing, like Web Wiz. She's just super intelligent. And I am admired by her ability to, kind of, like really succeed in an industry that sometimes is a bit cloudy, and also she's super funny. Got a friend called B Watson, and she runs a company called the wild hive, not the wild hive, wild hive. And she makes paper flowers, paper flower artists, and like, this past year in particular, she's just, like, massively, just created a business that is so cool and so popular, and she's so independent and really powerful and really supportive. So yeah, I yeah, I'm surrounded by women actually, and really grateful to them all.

Karla: Oh, thank you. Thanks so much, and thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you

Kalkidan: Thanks for having me